Speak Out Network
THE BEGINNING OF MAN
I am not a man of the cloth, I consider myself spiritual. Here is a question for the clergy of any faith, Can you explain the link between the following passages of GENESIS(KJV)?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Bri'on on -
"Okay, but it must be a work in progress because there are still different versions of the bible out there."
In my opinion there will always be different bibles just like there are several denominations in one religion. Men represent different ideas and break off to create there own rituals and call it a religion. How do you influence a mass of people to focus on what's written instead of what's said?
LibyaWest said:Who decided what books should be in the Bible?
Sans the final paragraph, the article contains the point I would have made eventually, to wit, the events set out in the New Testament had to be compiled from available sources and translated. New and revised editions of the "Bible" continued to appear far after the Council of Nicea codified the basic precepts of Christianity which the Orthodox church never did accept.
Now the final paragraph says that this was all in the scheme of things and worked out just like God planned it. Okay, but it must be a work in progress because there are still different versions of the bible out there.
-
Permalink Reply by safirah chinwe on -
hi bri'on,
i am inspired by your curiousity. i'm glad that u seek to be closer to the lord. i guess i can be skeptical of theories because there will always be a "countertheory". when u deal with eras that were so far ago, its hard to use tangible evidence to support a "theory". as far as historical glitches goes, i guess what came to mind to me was the content that may have been lost in translation fron hebrew to english. for example if u look at the name of the savior Jesus, it's a known fact that the letter J was created way after the times of yeshua (the hebrew name for jesus). but i don't get caught up in the yeshua v. jesus debate because i know metaphorically they both represent the mercy and grace of the heavenly creator.
Bri'on said:
"when u ask about adam and eve being the missing link, u consider them to link what to what? i know u posed a lot of questions, and i don't mean to ignore them but i am curious as to what our opinions will do for u. what historical evidence do u believe a clergyman can provide to put u at ease? i honestly believe we can only hypothesize our answers. i ignored the historical glitches of the bible long ago because i look to the holy book more for metaphorical inspiration than hard core facts."
Hello Safirah,
Some time ago I decided to start reading the bible without prejudice. Every Sunday School lesson I participated in, every choir rehearsal I sang in, every bible study I participated in, and every sermon I heard, I let go. I began to read the bible as it states, just me and my interpretation instead of hearing someone else's version of interpretation while reading (if that makes sense). It took time, but I had to breathe, I had to pause, I had to pray, and best of most I had to meditate. There was a moment when I realized that most of what I was led to believe from the bible was skewed, by other people. People the community trusted to lift them spiritually and help guide them to a healthy lifestyle. Spirituality and healthy living are in the bible, word-for-word and if you live by them to the best of your ability you will find yourself in a free space.
I was cleaning my home a few Saturday's ago and the spirit of the Lord fell upon me. All I could do was fall to my knees and give praise and thanks. All doors and blinds open just me and the spirit of the Lord;no choir in the background, no usher to my seat, no preacher in the pulpit, just me and the spirit and it was awesome!
To answer your questions:
Genesis 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." According to verse 1:27-28, male and female were already created and it appears generations passed before Adam and Eve were formed (GENESIS 2:7 for Adam and 2:22 for Eve), that being said could Adam and Eve be the link between the of the Cro-Magnon to the Neanderthal. If GOD created different types of fish and fowl, couldn't GOD do the same with humans?
Your opinions help me explore different answers to my questions.
The clergy are learned in this discipline, so I figure they will have an insight I do not have.
Hypothesize to a theory to a proven fact.
In my opinion there are no historical glitches in the bible, just glitches in how we read the bible.
-
Permalink Reply by Bri'on on
-
@Safirah:"...as far as historical glitches goes, i guess what came to mind to me was the content that may have been lost in translation fron hebrew to english..."
Who decided what books should be in the Bible?
I don't know if anything was lost in translation, I believe they were as meticulous as humanly possible in translating though. It must have been an arduous task. We have the remnants of their work and most people are preached about the bible's contents from the cradle. It is one of many documents that teaches spirituality, health and wise living, but the one most referred to. It is THE BIBLE.
Why are we led to believe what is told to us instead of what is written?
-
Permalink Reply by Cerrita Mathis on -
Hello Mr. Bri'on, and thank you for your patients. Through my life studies I found that in some cases that what we put into life is what we get out of it, I believe that God will not put no more on us than we can bear and whatever he allows to happen in our lives it's always to draw us closer to him, God knows just what to allow to happen in our lives to get our attention.
Personally I would have liked to see my life be different but that's my plan not the "Master's Plan" and because he is "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" alpha and omega I had to learn to trust his plan, destiny and purpose for my life. For I know he knows what's best for me better than I know for my own self. I'm also learning day by day to trust him even more with my everyday life activities. I have a testimony I'm led to share with you, I stop dating or even looking for the "Ordained One" (Proverbs 18:22kjv) about 7 in a half years ago, I told the Lord I would wait on him to send who he has chosen and ordained for me (Genesis 2: 18-25kjv) I came to the understanding that he knows who my "Rib" belongs to. So enough about me LOL! Through your life studies What are your thoughts? man of God have a blessed and prosperous day.
PeaceIn,
Cerrita
Bri'on said:Hello Ms. Cerrita, I appreciate and thank you for your compliments, I am just trying to humble myself to learn more on my quest. I will wait for your response. You also stay blessed and prosperous. 1LUV
Cerrita Mathis said:Hello Mr. Bri'on, first I see that you are a very clever,smart and intelligent man who knows what he wants, how to get what he wants and when to pursue it, agreed timing is important I thought I'd let you know I was taught by my father to stay in tune with a man to get clear understanding of what he wants or is asking for. The question that you ask is a very detailed one and I'm trying to find a way to answer it as briefly as possible so give me a day or so and I promise I will answer, thanks for your patience, wisdom and understanding(Proverbs 4:7kjv) I greatly appreciate it stay blessed and prosperous.
PeaceIn,
Cerrita
Bri'on said:Hello Ms. Cerrita,
Through your life studies, what are your thoughts?
Cerrita Mathis said:I believe we are led to believe what we are told instead of what is written because sometimes when we and I say we because I'm including myself sometimes dont know what to believe or we are unsure of the complete information so what is told to us sounds more believable and easy to understand so we accept that until we make it our business to search it out for ourselves, now there is this cliche' that says: "Knowledge is Power" but it's only power when we apply it. I personally dont believe everything someone tells me until I investigate it myself now dont get me wrong I'm not saying that it's not true what I'm told but I will check it out for my own self assurance, there's no sense repeating something someone told you if you dont know for sure that what your repeating is true stay blessed and prosperous.
PeaceIn,
Cerrita
Bri'on said:Hello Ms. Cerrita,
I posted some questions at the end of my statement. The summary of my statement is:Why are we led to believe what is told to us instead of what is written?
Cerrita Mathis said:
Hello Mr.Bri'on I would like to expound on this for you but if you would please be more specific so I can be clearer in my answer cause I feel in my spirit that I should answer this with understanding.
PeaceIn,
Cerrita
-
Permalink Reply by Bri'on on
-
@Cerrita:Amen sista, and GOD Bless! What we put into life is indeed what we get out of it. Through all the obstacles and challenges, to GOD be the Glory!
As far as the dating, I would say, live the life you love and the rest will follow, but always keep your spirituality close to your heart. 1LUV
-
Permalink Reply by LibyaWest on -
When I was 28, I had the most unusual experience of being physically engulfed in a "light". That experience lead me to a study of comparative religions and mythologies around the world, focusing my attention primarily on the "light".
Unlike you, I didn't start with the bible, because there had been nothing in my sunday-school going that accounted for what happened to me. (Yes, I had my eyes checked!!!)
At any rate, what became crystal clear was the degree to which culture was transmitted orally all over the world. Looking at your avatar, one might say, "from mouth to ear". Even when the teachings had been reduced to physical form, like print, a great deal of information was left to be imparted. Many times the print only contained what, around the world, was said to be the "shell of the egg" or the "hull of the nut". Some folks here would say the "sunday school" version.
As I indicated to you, eventually I was able to sync the bible stories with the rest, by way of language. However, because I was never formally initiated into any tradition, the deeper understanding of the stories is lost to me. What I can do is say that this or that story is the same here as there.
Point? It's my intention to encourage you to look beyond the bible for your answers with no desire on my part that you abandon your bible studies for the reason that after years of study, what you'll find is that you'll still want to pick a spiritual traditional to follow.
-
Permalink Reply by Cerrita Mathis on
-
To God be the Glory is right man of God, and thank you for the advice I've learned that we are never to old to learn it's an ongoing process, my pastor has this quote that he says when he's teaching Leadership/Ministers Class and it goes: When you cease to Learn you cease to Lead.
PeaceIn,
Cerrita
Bri'on said:@Cerrita:Amen sista, and GOD Bless! What we put into life is indeed what we get out of it. Through all the obstacles and challenges, to GOD be the Glory!
As far as the dating, I would say, live the life you love and the rest will follow, but always keep your spirituality close to your heart. 1LUV
-
Permalink Reply by Bri'on on
-
LibyaWest..thanks for sharing, that must have been quite an experience. When I was a kid, I visited my best friend's church. His Mom was the preacher, I believe it was an evangelist or pentecostal church, anyway while she had her hand over my head praying, I felt the holy spirit in half of my body. At that point I had a choice, accept all of the holy ghost or none. I chose none. I have been chasing that feeling sense. I have felt the spirit of the Lord several times, but none as intense as when I was about 9.
I have studied outside of the bible a bit. I have been involved with other practices also (ausar auset society, buddhist, et al). I will continue to do so.
"Even when the teachings had been reduced to physical form, like print, a great deal of information was left to be imparted. Many times the print only contained what, around the world, was said to be the "shell of the egg" or the "hull of the nut". Some folks here would say the "sunday school" version."
If the world has the "Sunday school version" of the King James Version, one of the top 3 if not #1 spiritual doctrine in the world, who has the "Sunday sermon version" or the "Bible study version" or the TRUTH.
LibyaWest said:When I was 28, I had the most unusual experience of being physically engulfed in a "light". That experience lead me to a study of comparative religions and mythologies around the world, focusing my attention primarily on the "light".
Unlike you, I didn't start with the bible, because there had been nothing in my sunday-school going that accounted for what happened to me. (Yes, I had my eyes checked!!!)
At any rate, what became crystal clear was the degree to which culture was transmitted orally all over the world. Looking at your avatar, one might say, "from mouth to ear". Even when the teachings had been reduced to physical form, like print, a great deal of information was left to be imparted. Many times the print only contained what, around the world, was said to be the "shell of the egg" or the "hull of the nut". Some folks here would say the "sunday school" version.
As I indicated to you, eventually I was able to sync the bible stories with the rest, by way of language. However, because I was never formally initiated into any tradition, the deeper understanding of the stories is lost to me. What I can do is say that this or that story is the same here as there.
Point? It's my intention to encourage you to look beyond the bible for your answers with no desire on my part that you abandon your bible studies for the reason that after years of study, what you'll find is that you'll still want to pick a spiritual traditional to follow.
-
Permalink Reply by safirah chinwe on
-
to the best of my knowledge, there was a biblical makeover during emperor constantine's reign to unify christian ideologies into roman latin to facilitate his control over his empire. then, king james oversaw scribes to write a modern english version of the bible. i notice differences in concept when i translate from english to spanish. i can only imagine what can get lost from hebrew to greek to aramaic to latin to english. i'm not saying that humans have a negative intent to twist words, i'm just saying that language is culture and we all know that cultures are different.
my west african heritage heavily relies on oral tradition because usually the scribes only document one side to a two side story. recently, there's a debate in the roman catholic church to change the bible AGAIN. somehow through the centuries the hebrew word "almah" was translated to virgin. almah means a young woman. how upset would a catholic be if they have to be told that mary was a young woman instead of a virgin at christ's conception. this mistake could not have happened with oral tradition. in fact, i am determined to learn hebrew so that i can read the torah in hebrew. misunderstandings like these i call glitches but it is reassuring to know that i am not the only one that does not solely rely on the bible for spiritual education. keep the faith :)
Bri'on said:@Safirah:"...as far as historical glitches goes, i guess what came to mind to me was the content that may have been lost in translation fron hebrew to english..."
Who decided what books should be in the Bible?
I don't know if anything was lost in translation, I believe they were as meticulous as humanly possible in translating though. It must have been an arduous task. We have the remnants of their work and most people are preached about the bible's contents from the cradle. It is one of many documents that teaches spirituality, health and wise living, but the one most referred to. It is THE BIBLE.
Why are we led to believe what is told to us instead of what is written?
-
Permalink Reply by LibyaWest on
-
my west african heritage heavily relies on oral tradition because usually the scribes only document one side to a two side story.......... safirah chinwe
Anybody who has ever tried to translate a substantive, secular document from one language to another certainly knows that it just ain't that easy!!!!! When you get into "religious" documents, its even worse for the reason that many of them are coded. The information contained therein is meant to be hidden.
For example, the language I study is tonal. One syllable can be pronounced five different ways. Out of that characteristic, children's games like "wax and gold" were invented where a slight change in the pronunciation of a sentence yields an entirely different meaning. So someone trying to translate the language is bound to leave almost all of it undone. The ancients were experts in word play!
So who knows the "Sunday Sermon" versions. The initiates of the various cultures. Its seems to be a universal process whereby a person reaching certain milestones in life are introduced to whatever information is needed for that stage of life. There is no insistence that the members of the group remain children forever. There is a bible verse to that effect, something about putting away the things of childhood which, in my humble opinion, include some of the literal interpretations of the bible stories.
-
Permalink Reply by JamieLMyer on -
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/genesis/pdf/CHAPTER2.PDF
I don't know if this will answer your question, but apparently so many have asked it that a book and PBS series was developed around the concept of Genesis and it's meaning. There are different representatives from different religions discussing their interpretation.
If nothing else, it makes for fascinating reading. There are more links, as well. I will say, if you are one to be insulted by multiple interpretations and know your way is the only way, don't read this or go to any of the links. I am sending this with the hope there is recognition that in order for me to understand, I have to listen, read, watch all views and interpretations of life to reach my own understanding.
IN GOD'S IMAGETHE STORY OF CREATION: GENESIS 1-2In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image,after our likeness . . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; maleand female created he them. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, King James Version)And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath oflife; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7, King James Version)Now read both stories in your own Bible (in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2).
IN GOD'S IMAGEby Renita J. Weems
In our Western way of thinking, two stories mean that one is truth and the other isn't. We have a toughtime with one coexisting next to the other. It creates a whole host of problems for us because we expectthe Bible to be free of these kinds of contradictions.I remember looking at these two stories on my own for the first time and thinking, "How could I havemissed that?" But, you know, when I stop seeing them as actual accounts of what happened I feel better. Iam more at ease. Even now, I can't see Genesis 1 and 2 as accounts of exactly what happened at creation.They are attempts at telling us what happened from the beginning, not in the beginning. They are aboutthe friction between men and women, about the labor and pain in childbirth, about discord in the family.They are about the suffering and hardship and toil that define so much of our lives. These stories,together, tell us of a world created by God that is also full of imperfections.I think the most interesting question with the two stories of creation is why would someone sit down andinclude two competing stories in the Bible? It's something that many of us would find inconceivable. Is itan attempt to concede to two different ways of understanding God and creation? This is a nation-buildingdocument, maybe it was a way to make peace about competing visions of creation.It also touches on the inscrutability of God and existence. But that is where language trips us up continuously because a man and a woman are both created in the image of God, and yet God is more thanmale or female. Our language portrays a masculine God and yet that first story insists that male andfemale were both created in the image of God and no doubt God is even more than that. Even femalenessand maleness are shadows of the divine being, the divine presence.But, you know, we spend so much time on the image of God that we lose God's relationship to the imageof humankind. It may well be that creation pulls something out of God. Maybe these stories tell us moreabout ourselves and what it means to be created, to be dependent on God.Renita J. Weems, a series participant, is a professor of Old Testament studies at Vanderbilt UniversityDivinity School.
ONE STORY OR TWO STORIES?Because the Bible is a compilation of stories, believed to have been written at different times, some of the stories repeat or even conflict with one another. The story of the creation of man and woman, for instance, is told twice, first in Genesis 1:27, then in Genesis 2:7, 18, 21-24. Are these parts of one story ortwo different stories?In Genesis 1, both male and female share in one divine image. In Genesis 2, male and female share inone created flesh; the human creature fashioned from dust and given divine breath is divided into manand woman. Human community becomes possible as the gift of God. In community, we who are createdin the image of the one God can experience the oneness of our common created humanness, our oneflesh.Some have found it confusing to have two accounts of our human createdness, but it is not necessary tochoose between them, to privilege one over the other, or to force them to harmonize. Neither witnessalone could do justice to the complexity of gifts the Creator has bestowed on human creatures. And, werecognize the truth of ourselves in each testimony. The Hebrew writers wisely understood we need themboth.--Bruce Birch is a professor of Old Testament at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, D.C.They are two different stories. In the first story, humanity is created at one fell swoop, which implies manand woman are equal. And it also suggests something about how we read God--that God can't simply beseen as "He." If humanity reflects God, we have to understand that God has both male and female aspectsin some miraculous way. But the second story is even more intriguing because not only is woman createdfrom man's rib, man is created out of dirt. God picks up something and makes it stand and blows life intoit . . . Both man and woman are much more subordinate to God in the second story. They have a muchmore complicated relationship with God as well as with each other.--Rabbi Burton L. Visotzky is a professor of Midrash at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America inNew York City (from "In God's Image" program)
agree or not it is a fascinating subject that invites fascinating, respectful conversation.
all information above has been taken from pbs.org
-
Permalink Reply by Bri'on on
-
I get the author's premise, two separate stories. I see something different, 2 separate accounts in one story. It explains Cain's fear.
JamieLMyer said:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/genesis/pdf/CHAPTER2.PDF
I don't know if this will answer your question, but apparently so many have asked it that a book and PBS series was developed around the concept of Genesis and it's meaning. There are different representatives from different religions discussing their interpretation.
If nothing else, it makes for fascinating reading. There are more links, as well. I will say, if you are one to be insulted by multiple interpretations and know your way is the only way, don't read this or go to any of the links. I am sending this with the hope there is recognition that in order for me to understand, I have to listen, read, watch all views and interpretations of life to reach my own understanding.
IN GOD'S IMAGETHE STORY OF CREATION: GENESIS 1-2In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image,after our likeness . . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; maleand female created he them. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, King James Version)And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath oflife; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7, King James Version)Now read both stories in your own Bible (in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2).
IN GOD'S IMAGEby Renita J. Weems
In our Western way of thinking, two stories mean that one is truth and the other isn't. We have a toughtime with one coexisting next to the other. It creates a whole host of problems for us because we expectthe Bible to be free of these kinds of contradictions.I remember looking at these two stories on my own for the first time and thinking, "How could I havemissed that?" But, you know, when I stop seeing them as actual accounts of what happened I feel better. Iam more at ease. Even now, I can't see Genesis 1 and 2 as accounts of exactly what happened at creation.They are attempts at telling us what happened from the beginning, not in the beginning. They are aboutthe friction between men and women, about the labor and pain in childbirth, about discord in the family.They are about the suffering and hardship and toil that define so much of our lives. These stories,together, tell us of a world created by God that is also full of imperfections.I think the most interesting question with the two stories of creation is why would someone sit down andinclude two competing stories in the Bible? It's something that many of us would find inconceivable. Is itan attempt to concede to two different ways of understanding God and creation? This is a nation-buildingdocument, maybe it was a way to make peace about competing visions of creation.It also touches on the inscrutability of God and existence. But that is where language trips us up continuously because a man and a woman are both created in the image of God, and yet God is more thanmale or female. Our language portrays a masculine God and yet that first story insists that male andfemale were both created in the image of God and no doubt God is even more than that. Even femalenessand maleness are shadows of the divine being, the divine presence.But, you know, we spend so much time on the image of God that we lose God's relationship to the imageof humankind. It may well be that creation pulls something out of God. Maybe these stories tell us moreabout ourselves and what it means to be created, to be dependent on God.Renita J. Weems, a series participant, is a professor of Old Testament studies at Vanderbilt UniversityDivinity School.
ONE STORY OR TWO STORIES?Because the Bible is a compilation of stories, believed to have been written at different times, some of the stories repeat or even conflict with one another. The story of the creation of man and woman, for instance, is told twice, first in Genesis 1:27, then in Genesis 2:7, 18, 21-24. Are these parts of one story ortwo different stories?In Genesis 1, both male and female share in one divine image. In Genesis 2, male and female share inone created flesh; the human creature fashioned from dust and given divine breath is divided into manand woman. Human community becomes possible as the gift of God. In community, we who are createdin the image of the one God can experience the oneness of our common created humanness, our oneflesh.Some have found it confusing to have two accounts of our human createdness, but it is not necessary tochoose between them, to privilege one over the other, or to force them to harmonize. Neither witnessalone could do justice to the complexity of gifts the Creator has bestowed on human creatures. And, werecognize the truth of ourselves in each testimony. The Hebrew writers wisely understood we need themboth.--Bruce Birch is a professor of Old Testament at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, D.C.They are two different stories. In the first story, humanity is created at one fell swoop, which implies manand woman are equal. And it also suggests something about how we read God--that God can't simply beseen as "He." If humanity reflects God, we have to understand that God has both male and female aspectsin some miraculous way. But the second story is even more intriguing because not only is woman createdfrom man's rib, man is created out of dirt. God picks up something and makes it stand and blows life intoit . . . Both man and woman are much more subordinate to God in the second story. They have a muchmore complicated relationship with God as well as with each other.--Rabbi Burton L. Visotzky is a professor of Midrash at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America inNew York City (from "In God's Image" program)
agree or not it is a fascinating subject that invites fascinating, respectful conversation.
all information above has been taken from pbs.org
© 2013 Created by Smiley and West.
